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MILIS MURTADIN_KAFIRUN
MURTADIN KAFIRUNexMUSLIM INDONESIA BERJAYA12 Oktober Hari Murtad Dari Islam Sedunia Menyongsong Punahnya Islam
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yesus dukun tiban
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yesus dukun tiban
by kermit_penjilat_memek Wed 14 Nov 2012, 6:20 am
“Shamanism is
not a religion. It is a spiritual discipline that can be used in
conjunction with any religion... Shamanic teachings were sharply
curtailed and then expunged under the controlling rule of Christianity.”
Take a look at the seven pictures above. Which one or ones would you say might depict a shaman?
Would
you select the woman from the Hupa Indians of California on the far
left or the man from Ecuador (top left)? Perhaps it is the man from
Brazil (far right). Could a Jewish rabbi waving a lulav during the Feast
of Tabernacles be a shaman? And what about the regular American guy at
the top right or the woman in the middle? Then again, maybe it is the
“cowboy” at the bottom left.
Though
our choices might seem fairly obvious, those who know a little more
about shamanism are aware that shamans can be rather different when it
comes to appearance. Shamans can be found in just about every culture
around the world.
For
example, the “regular American guy” in the blue shirt just happens to
be Dr. Michael Harner, founder of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies.
From the foundation’s web site is this description of Dr. Harner.
Apparently shamans can have PhDs and wear regular clothes based on their own culture
The
“cowboy” and the woman in the middle are Rabbi Gershon Winkler and
Rabbi Miriam Maron and both are involved in shamanistic practices.
It
seems that Jewish rabbis could also be shamans which leads us to the
question... “Could Jesus, who many would see as a Jewish rabbi, among
other things, be classified as a shaman?”
First, we need to define the word shaman. If you google “define shaman” you will find many definitions including:
A) a religious specialist who uses supernatural power in curing
B)
In traditional societies, a shaman is a person who, usually in an
altered state of consciousness, acts as an intermediary between the
natural and supernatural worlds to predict and control the future, cure
illness, generate miracles, and the like.
C)
Part priest, part sorcerer, magician and seer, healer, prophet, male or
female, shamans can enter into a state of trance... call upon
benevolent spirits and fight to the death against malevolent ones,
exercise justice, heal the body and save the soul, condemn, forgive,
take or give life. Mediums, sages and sorcerers, they act as
intermediaries between the world of the living and the supernatural
world of shadows and spirits.
In the Introduction in his book, The Way of The Shaman, Dr. Harner describes a shaman as follows: “the
keepers of a remarkable body of ancient techniques that they use to
achieve and maintain well-being and healing for themselves and members
of their communities shamanism is a great mental and emotional
adventure, one in which the patient as well as the shaman-healer are
involved. Through is heroic journey and efforts, the shaman helps his
patients transcend their normal, ordinary definition of reality,
including the definition of themselves as ill. The shaman shows his
patients that they are not emotionally and spiritually alone in their
struggles against illness and death. The shaman shares his special
powers and convinces his patients, on a deep level of consciousness,
that another human being is willing to offer up his own self to help
them. The shaman’s self-sacrifice calls forth a commensurate emotional
commitment from his patients, a sense of obligation to struggle
alongside the shaman to save one’s self. Caring and curing go hand in
hand.”
If
I took that paragraph and simply altered a few words, none of which
would alter the meaning or context, I could read that paragraph as a
description of Jesus and his ministry in most evangelical, fundamental
Christian churches and get a big “AMEN.”
Recognizing
that this is a giant oversimplification, shamans take supernatural
journeys through an altered state of consciousness in order to gain
insight, revelation and knowledge so that they may bring healing,
wholeness, and provision to an individual or group.
Through
this journeying and other methods, healings in the body, soul and
spirit as well as other types of miracles can occur including things
such as controlling spiritual forces, altering the weather and
predicting the future.
If
we can get past the stereotype of a shaman only being a Indian medicine
man or woman or an African witch doctor and realize that one could be a
shaman in virtually any culture, including the Jewish culture of the
1st century, it is not difficult to see how the teachings and ministry
of Jesus were very shamanistic.
Was Jesus interested in achieving and maintaining the well being of individuals, communities and in fact, the world? Absolutely!
Would
it be wrong to classify Jesus’ entire life as a heroic journey? Did he
help people transcend the normal, ordinary definition of reality? If you
wonder about that, consider raising Lazarus after he was buried for
three days or feeding thousands with very little food, or stilling a
storm. That might transcend the ordinary definition of reality. Did
Jesus teach his “patients/followers” that they would have to face their
struggles against illness or death all alone? No! Instead, he actually
promised to be with them always, no matter what. Did he offer up his own
“self” to help others? And yet, did he expect a commitment from those
who wanted his “help?” YES!
Did
Jesus somehow supernaturally control nature, deal with malevolent
spirits, heal, forgive, predict the future, etc.? Again “YES!”
And
if we look at Jesus’ disciples, didn’t they also do the same things?
Did they heal, predict the future and “journey?” We certainly have
examples of healing and raising the dead in the New Testament when it
come to Peter and Paul. Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10 both experience
dreams and/or trances. Paul states that he “journeyed” to the 3rd
heaven. The apostle, John had an amazing journey to other realms that
became the book of Revelation. Of course, once we see the book of
Revelation as a shamanistic journey, it just might force us to
reinterpret and adjust our interpretation of that book.
One
objection some may raise in opposition to my premise that Jesus was a
shaman is the altered state of consciousness issue. Let me suggest that
when one is in a trance, when one sees a ladder stretching to heaven
with angels going up and down the ladder as Jacob did, when one sees
visions such as Daniel did or John did in the book of Revelation, it is
not stretching things to suggest that one would be in an altered state
of consciousness while experiencing these events. If an altered state of
consciousness means one experiences a state of consciousness beyond the
normal, ordinary human capacity, I would suggest to you that if someone
claims that all of his words come directly from God, that person would
definitely be experiencing a state of consciousness well beyond the
ordinary, which is exactly what Jesus claimed.
Spirit Person - Mediator of the Sacred
One
of my favourite books is by Marcus Borg, entitled Meeting Jesus Again -
For The First Time. In it, Dr. Borg uses the terms “spirit person” and
“mediator of the sacred” to describe Jesus. He writes...
"Spirit
persons are known cross-culturally. They are people who have vivid and
frequent subjective experiences of another level or dimension of
reality. These experiences involve momentary entry into non-ordinary
states of consciousness and take a number of different forms. Sometimes
there is a vivid sense of momentarily seeing into another layer of
reality; these are visionary experiences. Sometimes there is the
experience of journeying into that other dimension of reality; this is
the classic experience of the shaman. Sometimes there is a strong sense
of another reality coming upon one, as in the ancient expression “the
Spirit fell upon me.” Sometimes the experience is of nature or an object
within nature momentarily transfigured by “the sacred” shining through
it.... What all persons who have these experiences share is a strong
sense of there being more to reality than the tangible world of our
ordinary experience. They share a compelling sense of having experienced
something “real.” They feel strongly that they know something they
didn't know before. Their experiences are noetic, involving not simply a
feeling of ecstasy, but a knowing. What such persons know is the
sacred. Spirit persons are people who experience the sacred frequently
and vividly. They mediate the Spirit in various ways. Sometimes they
speak the word or the will of God. Sometimes they mediate the power of
God in the form of healings and/or exorcisms. Sometimes they function as
game finders or rainmakers in hunting-and-gathering and early
agricultural societies. Sometimes they become charismatic warriors and
military leaders. What they all have in common is that they become
funnels or conduits for the power or wisdom of God to enter into this
world. Anthropologically speaking, they are delegates of the tribe to
another layer of reality, mediators who connect their communities to the
Spirit."
So
did Jesus function as a 1st century Jewish “shaman?” It is an
interesting concept, especially if we see ourselves as one of his
disciples with the mandate to do what he did and even greater things
(John 14:12). Could it be that we too are to be “shamans” journeying
into spiritual realms to help others? And remember that the first
shamans were probably a combination of priest and healer... isn’t that
combination a description of Jesus? Could it be that Jesus was, among
other things, a first century Jewish shaman? To quote an old saying, if
it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...
well you get the point. Jesus’ life and ministry just might be the
perfect description of a “shaman” and if that is true, are there
“shamans” out in the world who are “imitating” Christ and doing what
Jesus did, far more than many “Christians?” Could it be that there are
“pagans” who resemble Jesus more than those who claim to be Christians?
Or am I deluded to even suggest such a thing? I will have to leave that
decision up to you but as for me, I think I just might go and attend a
basic shamanic workshop. I will keep you posted.
http://dougtrudell.com/html/was_jesus_a_shaman.html
not a religion. It is a spiritual discipline that can be used in
conjunction with any religion... Shamanic teachings were sharply
curtailed and then expunged under the controlling rule of Christianity.”
(From Advanced Celtic Shamanism by D. J. Conway)
Take a look at the seven pictures above. Which one or ones would you say might depict a shaman?
Would
you select the woman from the Hupa Indians of California on the far
left or the man from Ecuador (top left)? Perhaps it is the man from
Brazil (far right). Could a Jewish rabbi waving a lulav during the Feast
of Tabernacles be a shaman? And what about the regular American guy at
the top right or the woman in the middle? Then again, maybe it is the
“cowboy” at the bottom left.
Though
our choices might seem fairly obvious, those who know a little more
about shamanism are aware that shamans can be rather different when it
comes to appearance. Shamans can be found in just about every culture
around the world.
For
example, the “regular American guy” in the blue shirt just happens to
be Dr. Michael Harner, founder of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies.
From the foundation’s web site is this description of Dr. Harner.
“Michael
Harner received his anthropology Ph.D. in 1963 from the University of
California, Berkeley, and has taught at various institutions, including
UC Berkeley, Columbia University, Yale University, and the Graduate
Faculty of the New School in New York, where he was chair of the
anthropology department. He also served as co-chair of the anthropology
section of the New York Academy of Sciences. He left academia in 1987 in
order to devote himself full-time to shamanism.”
Harner received his anthropology Ph.D. in 1963 from the University of
California, Berkeley, and has taught at various institutions, including
UC Berkeley, Columbia University, Yale University, and the Graduate
Faculty of the New School in New York, where he was chair of the
anthropology department. He also served as co-chair of the anthropology
section of the New York Academy of Sciences. He left academia in 1987 in
order to devote himself full-time to shamanism.”
Apparently shamans can have PhDs and wear regular clothes based on their own culture
The
“cowboy” and the woman in the middle are Rabbi Gershon Winkler and
Rabbi Miriam Maron and both are involved in shamanistic practices.
|
seems that Jewish rabbis could also be shamans which leads us to the
question... “Could Jesus, who many would see as a Jewish rabbi, among
other things, be classified as a shaman?”
First, we need to define the word shaman. If you google “define shaman” you will find many definitions including:
A) a religious specialist who uses supernatural power in curing
B)
In traditional societies, a shaman is a person who, usually in an
altered state of consciousness, acts as an intermediary between the
natural and supernatural worlds to predict and control the future, cure
illness, generate miracles, and the like.
C)
Part priest, part sorcerer, magician and seer, healer, prophet, male or
female, shamans can enter into a state of trance... call upon
benevolent spirits and fight to the death against malevolent ones,
exercise justice, heal the body and save the soul, condemn, forgive,
take or give life. Mediums, sages and sorcerers, they act as
intermediaries between the world of the living and the supernatural
world of shadows and spirits.
In the Introduction in his book, The Way of The Shaman, Dr. Harner describes a shaman as follows: “the
keepers of a remarkable body of ancient techniques that they use to
achieve and maintain well-being and healing for themselves and members
of their communities shamanism is a great mental and emotional
adventure, one in which the patient as well as the shaman-healer are
involved. Through is heroic journey and efforts, the shaman helps his
patients transcend their normal, ordinary definition of reality,
including the definition of themselves as ill. The shaman shows his
patients that they are not emotionally and spiritually alone in their
struggles against illness and death. The shaman shares his special
powers and convinces his patients, on a deep level of consciousness,
that another human being is willing to offer up his own self to help
them. The shaman’s self-sacrifice calls forth a commensurate emotional
commitment from his patients, a sense of obligation to struggle
alongside the shaman to save one’s self. Caring and curing go hand in
hand.”
If
I took that paragraph and simply altered a few words, none of which
would alter the meaning or context, I could read that paragraph as a
description of Jesus and his ministry in most evangelical, fundamental
Christian churches and get a big “AMEN.”
Recognizing
that this is a giant oversimplification, shamans take supernatural
journeys through an altered state of consciousness in order to gain
insight, revelation and knowledge so that they may bring healing,
wholeness, and provision to an individual or group.
Through
this journeying and other methods, healings in the body, soul and
spirit as well as other types of miracles can occur including things
such as controlling spiritual forces, altering the weather and
predicting the future.
If
we can get past the stereotype of a shaman only being a Indian medicine
man or woman or an African witch doctor and realize that one could be a
shaman in virtually any culture, including the Jewish culture of the
1st century, it is not difficult to see how the teachings and ministry
of Jesus were very shamanistic.
Was Jesus interested in achieving and maintaining the well being of individuals, communities and in fact, the world? Absolutely!
Would
it be wrong to classify Jesus’ entire life as a heroic journey? Did he
help people transcend the normal, ordinary definition of reality? If you
wonder about that, consider raising Lazarus after he was buried for
three days or feeding thousands with very little food, or stilling a
storm. That might transcend the ordinary definition of reality. Did
Jesus teach his “patients/followers” that they would have to face their
struggles against illness or death all alone? No! Instead, he actually
promised to be with them always, no matter what. Did he offer up his own
“self” to help others? And yet, did he expect a commitment from those
who wanted his “help?” YES!
Did
Jesus somehow supernaturally control nature, deal with malevolent
spirits, heal, forgive, predict the future, etc.? Again “YES!”
And
if we look at Jesus’ disciples, didn’t they also do the same things?
Did they heal, predict the future and “journey?” We certainly have
examples of healing and raising the dead in the New Testament when it
come to Peter and Paul. Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10 both experience
dreams and/or trances. Paul states that he “journeyed” to the 3rd
heaven. The apostle, John had an amazing journey to other realms that
became the book of Revelation. Of course, once we see the book of
Revelation as a shamanistic journey, it just might force us to
reinterpret and adjust our interpretation of that book.
One
objection some may raise in opposition to my premise that Jesus was a
shaman is the altered state of consciousness issue. Let me suggest that
when one is in a trance, when one sees a ladder stretching to heaven
with angels going up and down the ladder as Jacob did, when one sees
visions such as Daniel did or John did in the book of Revelation, it is
not stretching things to suggest that one would be in an altered state
of consciousness while experiencing these events. If an altered state of
consciousness means one experiences a state of consciousness beyond the
normal, ordinary human capacity, I would suggest to you that if someone
claims that all of his words come directly from God, that person would
definitely be experiencing a state of consciousness well beyond the
ordinary, which is exactly what Jesus claimed.
Spirit Person - Mediator of the Sacred
One
of my favourite books is by Marcus Borg, entitled Meeting Jesus Again -
For The First Time. In it, Dr. Borg uses the terms “spirit person” and
“mediator of the sacred” to describe Jesus. He writes...
"Spiritpersons are known cross-culturally. They are people who have vivid and
frequent subjective experiences of another level or dimension of
reality. These experiences involve momentary entry into non-ordinary
states of consciousness and take a number of different forms. Sometimes
there is a vivid sense of momentarily seeing into another layer of
reality; these are visionary experiences. Sometimes there is the
experience of journeying into that other dimension of reality; this is
the classic experience of the shaman. Sometimes there is a strong sense
of another reality coming upon one, as in the ancient expression “the
Spirit fell upon me.” Sometimes the experience is of nature or an object
within nature momentarily transfigured by “the sacred” shining through
it.... What all persons who have these experiences share is a strong
sense of there being more to reality than the tangible world of our
ordinary experience. They share a compelling sense of having experienced
something “real.” They feel strongly that they know something they
didn't know before. Their experiences are noetic, involving not simply a
feeling of ecstasy, but a knowing. What such persons know is the
sacred. Spirit persons are people who experience the sacred frequently
and vividly. They mediate the Spirit in various ways. Sometimes they
speak the word or the will of God. Sometimes they mediate the power of
God in the form of healings and/or exorcisms. Sometimes they function as
game finders or rainmakers in hunting-and-gathering and early
agricultural societies. Sometimes they become charismatic warriors and
military leaders. What they all have in common is that they become
funnels or conduits for the power or wisdom of God to enter into this
world. Anthropologically speaking, they are delegates of the tribe to
another layer of reality, mediators who connect their communities to the
Spirit."
So
did Jesus function as a 1st century Jewish “shaman?” It is an
interesting concept, especially if we see ourselves as one of his
disciples with the mandate to do what he did and even greater things
(John 14:12). Could it be that we too are to be “shamans” journeying
into spiritual realms to help others? And remember that the first
shamans were probably a combination of priest and healer... isn’t that
combination a description of Jesus? Could it be that Jesus was, among
other things, a first century Jewish shaman? To quote an old saying, if
it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...
well you get the point. Jesus’ life and ministry just might be the
perfect description of a “shaman” and if that is true, are there
“shamans” out in the world who are “imitating” Christ and doing what
Jesus did, far more than many “Christians?” Could it be that there are
“pagans” who resemble Jesus more than those who claim to be Christians?
Or am I deluded to even suggest such a thing? I will have to leave that
decision up to you but as for me, I think I just might go and attend a
basic shamanic workshop. I will keep you posted.
http://dougtrudell.com/html/was_jesus_a_shaman.html
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
itu seh dubrak.. dukun beranak bro.. 
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by jimatkalimasada Mon 19 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm
bandingkan saja..
antara apa yang dilakukan Yesus
dan apa yang dilakukan si muhemek
kan jauh banget..
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Thu 22 Nov 2012, 12:45 am
sama aja yang dilakukan yesus jim.. mandi, makan, tidur, beol, pipis, dll seperti manusia biasa, hanya saja muhammad saw luar biasa dan yesus hanya biasa saja.. jadi emang jelas jauh bangetlah.. luar biasa dan biasa aja...
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by jimatkalimasada Thu 22 Nov 2012, 3:54 pm
muhemek-mu tak pernah melakukan perbuatan baik sekalipun, kris
tetapi Yesus telah menolong banyak orang
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Fri 23 Nov 2012, 1:28 am
ente termasuk yang sudah pernah di tolong yesus ente bukan??? kalo pernah,boleh cerita donk ditolong apaan sama yesus?
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by jimatkalimasada Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:31 am
apa yang dilakukan Yesus sudah tertulis di Injil kris
banyak sekali perbuatan baik yang dlakukan-Nya bagi banyak orang
lha perbuatan baik yang pernah dilakukan muhemek apa kris?
kok adanya kejahatan dan kebejatan semua..
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:15 pm
mulai dah menjawab tdk sesuai pertanyaan nehh
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:18 pm
mulai dah menjawab tdk sesuai pertanyaan nehh
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by kermit_penjilat_memek Fri 30 Nov 2012, 10:51 am
boleh dah sekali2 tuhan jadi dukun tiban..... asal ga jadi dukun cabul aja
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by jimatkalimasada Fri 30 Nov 2012, 10:53 am
lha perbuatan baik yang pernah dilakukan muhemek apa kris?
kok adanya kejahatan dan kebejatan semua..
gak ada ya?
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by Christ Killer Sat 01 Dec 2012, 10:52 pm
buanyakk jim.. tapi kalo ente tau juga percuma,ilmu ente blum nyampe..
Re: yesus dukun tiban
Post by Christ Killer on Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:28 am
ente termasuk yang sudah pernah di tolong yesus ente bukan??? kalo pernah,boleh cerita donk ditolong apaan sama yesus?
yg ntu gak dijawab ente jim..?gak ada jawaban ya?
Re: yesus dukun tiban
Post by Christ Killer on Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:28 am
ente termasuk yang sudah pernah di tolong yesus ente bukan??? kalo pernah,boleh cerita donk ditolong apaan sama yesus?
yg ntu gak dijawab ente jim..?gak ada jawaban ya?
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Re: yesus dukun tiban
by kermit_penjilat_memek Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:22 pm
keknya si jim kabur ke forum LI, christ.......
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